Ah, EPN. Always repeating Zion's mistakes. Will you train this one's soldiers? Accept his miraculous "gifts"?

Every time I read posts by Machines on these threads, I am struck at how completely ignorant and uneducated you all sound.  You should seriously stop playing games and get an education.

There is a problem with your analogy: the slaves in America weren't freed into a post-nuclear wasteland with no sunlight where no food crops would grow.  Freeing them didn't condemn them to a quick death from shock or a slow death from starvation. 

A better comparison between freeing the bluepills and freeing the slaves would have been if the slaves had been freed into Antarctica...you can't grow food there either, and the environment is hostile to human life. 

Illyria

None of the nearly half-million people in New Zion is starving, thank you.  Unlike Machinists, we Zionists don't need programs to think for us or sentient machines to relieve us of responsibility and choice.

There is a problem with your analogy: the slaves in America weren't freed into a post-nuclear wasteland with no sunlight where no food crops would grow.  Freeing them didn't condemn them to a quick death from shock or a slow death from starvation. 

A better comparison between freeing the bluepills and freeing the slaves would have been if the slaves had been freed into Antarctica...you can't grow food there either, and the environment is hostile to human life. 

This is highly debateable, but nevertheless, it may have some truth.

Yet when the slaves of Egypt were freed, they wandered in the desert for years. They never said, "hey, let's turn around and go back to being slaves."

When slavery met its end in the free world, the freed peoples had nothing. They had no land, no where to live, no food, and no money. And yet, they didn't say "let's go back to being slaves!"

You see, freedom and the pain it can sometimes cause, is far more preferrable to living under the yoke of another. I'm willing to bet that most people would say that they would rather die free than live as a slave.

But more than that, no one of us can be free so long as the Machines insist on keeping the human race trapped inside the Matrix. We are all tied inexorably to this thing, with people and programs pulling our strings and pushing us in the directions they think we need to go.

Now, I don't know about you guys. . .but I am really getting tired of other people trying to control me.

PS10N wrote:

None of the nearly half-million people in New Zion is starving, thank you.  Unlike Machinists, we Zionists don't need programs to think for us or sentient machines to relieve us of responsibility and choice.

Our minds are our own, and we take responsibility for our own actions and choices. Claiming that we don't is only showing how your propaganda is ever unchanging and ludicrous. I don't ever expect you to stop with your preaching, as the only way you will ever know the truth is to be in our position and you are either to scared or too ignorant to ever even consider looking at things from our point of view.

You surely cannot believe that if you released all blues that they will be fed and housed nice and comfortably in New Zion, not only will there not be enough room to move, but disease and crime would run rampant as it has throughout human history when close proximity and limited resources were forced on people. There would be no other choice then for people to live outside of New Zion.. almost certainly condemning a number of them to death from starvation, cold, and hostile environments. As Lyr says, that's only if they don't die of shock initially....

Surely you can see this happening, tell me you are not blind to this problem?

This is highly debateable, but nevertheless, it may have some truth.

Yet when the slaves of Egypt were freed, they wandered in the desert for years. They never said, "hey, let's turn around and go back to being slaves."

When slavery met its end in the free world, the freed peoples had nothing. They had no land, no where to live, no food, and no money. And yet, they didn't say "let's go back to being slaves!"

You see, freedom and the pain it can sometimes cause, is far more preferrable to living under the yoke of another. I'm willing to bet that most people would say that they would rather die free than live as a slave.

Vinia wrote:

PS10N wrote:

None of the nearly half-million people in New Zion is starving, thank you.  Unlike Machinists, we Zionists don't need programs to think for us or sentient machines to relieve us of responsibility and choice.

Our minds are our own, and we take responsibility for our own actions and choices. Claiming that we don't is only showing how your propaganda is ever unchanging and ludicrous. I don't ever expect you to stop with your preaching, as the only way you will ever know the truth is to be in our position and you are either to scared or too ignorant to ever even consider looking at things from our point of view.

You surely cannot believe that if you released all blues that they will be fed and housed nice and comfortably in New Zion, not only will there not be enough room to move, but disease and crime would run rampant as it has throughout human history when close proximity and limited resources were forced on people. There would be no other choice then for people to live outside of New Zion.. almost certainly condemning a number of them to death from starvation, cold, and hostile environments. As Lyr says, that's only if they don't die of shock initially....

Surely you can see this happening, tell me you are not blind to this problem?

If one of the main goals (on all sides) is to work together like everyone preaches, then some sort of agreement could be reached for housing the population.   A singularity between both species could be achieved and that wouldn't be a problem.

None of the nearly half-million people in New Zion is starving, thank you. 

Maybe not now...but try doubling your population.  Then double it again.  Now multiply it by 300.  That's the low-end estimate of the number of humans in the Matrix.  I believe the actual number is much higher.

Take off your blinders and look around.  There is no possible way you can support the population of the Matrix in Zion or New Zion.  To free everyone without a place where they all can live and without the resources to produce food for all of them is to subject the vast majority of humanity to a death sentence.

Illyria

ShiXinFeng wrote:

This is highly debateable, but nevertheless, it may have some truth.

Yet when the slaves of Egypt were freed, they wandered in the desert for years. They never said, "hey, let's turn around and go back to being slaves."

When slavery met its end in the free world, the freed peoples had nothing. They had no land, no where to live, no food, and no money. And yet, they didn't say "let's go back to being slaves!"

You see, freedom and the pain it can sometimes cause, is far more preferrable to living under the yoke of another. I'm willing to bet that most people would say that they would rather die free than live as a slave.

Ah, but then they were released into the world in which they new, even to a limited amount, even if all they new was the plantation when venturing off it for the first time they saw what they were used to seeing ie sky, fields, houses, people etc.... They new in some small part about the world in which they lived. They had an idea how to survive the environment. The difference here is that all Humans even those who are completely dependant on the simulation, would be released into a hostile alien environment, nothing familiar whatsoever. Can you say that all the people in your examples survived to die of natural causes?

Nothing familiar whatsoever? What do you call you and me? Sure the world is darker and colder but it isn't as diffrent as you want to make it out to be. There are people there to help them and guide them as they adjust. The hostilities within the real are nothing compared to in the Matrix. Checked Mara? When isn't there a fight there. In the real you have to worry about sentinels and getting your jacked pulled while in the Matrix you have lupins, blood drinkers, succubi, nightmares, fly creatures, code dripping men, black garbed commandos, the list goes on. They are all in there looking for a fight and whats worse is a bluepills have no means what so ever to combat these things in a straight fight. Hell half the redpills out there still have trouble with a few.

Freedom comes at a cost, you have to give up the security of the control placed over you if you want to be free and some want that. Again get rid of the bias and see that Zion and EPN aren't intersted in forceing freedom on anyone. They arn't looking to shove an unwanted truth in peoples faces. They just want everyone to know that the option is there if they are intrested.

PS10N wrote:

None of the nearly half-million people in New Zion is starving, thank you. 

Maybe not now...but try doubling your population.  Then double it again.  Now multiply it by 300.  That's the low-end estimate of the number of humans in the Matrix.  I believe the actual number is much higher.

Take off your blinders and look around.  There is no possible way you can support the population of the Matrix in Zion or New Zion.  To free everyone without a place where they all can live and without the resources to produce food for all of them is to subject the vast majority of humanity to a death sentence.

 

 

Illyria

Vinia wrote:

Ah, but then they were released into the world in which they new, even to a limited amount, even if all they new was the plantation when venturing off it for the first time they saw what they were used to seeing ie sky, fields, houses, people etc.... They new in some small part about the world in which they lived. They had an idea how to survive the environment. The difference here is that all Humans even those who are completely dependant on the simulation, would be released into a hostile alien environment, nothing familiar whatsoever. Can you say that all the people in your examples survived to die of natural causes?

Nothing familiar whatsoever? What do you call you and me? Sure the world is darker and colder but it isn't as diffrent as you want to make it out to be. There are people there to help them and guide them as they adjust. The hostilities within the real are nothing compared to in the Matrix. Checked Mara? When isn't there a fight there. In the real you have to worry about sentinels and getting your jacked pulled while in the Matrix you have lupins, blood drinkers, succubi, nightmares, fly creatures, code dripping men, black garbed commandos, the list goes on. They are all in there looking for a fight and whats worse is a bluepills have no means what so ever to combat these things in a straight fight. Hell half the redpills out there still have trouble with a few.

Freedom comes at a cost, you have to give up the security of the control placed over you if you want to be free and some want that. Again get rid of the bias and see that Zion and EPN aren't intersted in forceing freedom on anyone. They arn't looking to shove an unwanted truth in peoples faces. They just want everyone to know that the option is there if they are intrested.

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

Ah, but then they were released into the world in which they new, even to a limited amount, even if all they new was the plantation when venturing off it for the first time they saw what they were used to seeing ie sky, fields, houses, people etc.... They new in some small part about the world in which they lived. They had an idea how to survive the environment. The difference here is that all Humans even those who are completely dependant on the simulation, would be released into a hostile alien environment, nothing familiar whatsoever. Can you say that all the people in your examples survived to die of natural causes?

Nothing familiar whatsoever? What do you call you and me? Sure the world is darker and colder but it isn't as diffrent as you want to make it out to be. There are people there to help them and guide them as they adjust. The hostilities within the real are nothing compared to in the Matrix. Checked Mara? When isn't there a fight there. In the real you have to worry about sentinels and getting your jacked pulled while in the Matrix you have lupins, blood drinkers, succubi, nightmares, fly creatures, code dripping men, black garbed commandos, the list goes on. They are all in there looking for a fight and whats worse is a bluepills have no means what so ever to combat these things in a straight fight. Hell half the redpills out there still have trouble with a few.

Freedom comes at a cost, you have to give up the security of the control placed over you if you want to be free and some want that. Again get rid of the bias and see that Zion and EPN aren't intersted in forceing freedom on anyone. They arn't looking to shove an unwanted truth in peoples faces. They just want everyone to know that the option is there if they are intrested.

So you're saying that bluepills are able to see and know exactly what those things are within the Simulation? Last I heard there were only ghost stories made up about them. Just because we can see them for what they are doesn't mean that they do or that it can't be explained away to them. As for Mara... see many bluepills pass through there? As far as they know it's just a gangland hotspot. Whereas out in the real, there's the realisation of no more human society, at least none that they recognise as normal, completely different way of living and as mentioned before not enough space for everyone, and that's just the tip of humans, what no one seems to recognise is the fact that most bluepills are dependant on the simulation, removal alone would most likely kill them.

To those dependant on the system the option for the truth alone would give them strong hints at the veil, if not show them that the world is a farce altogether and if they didn't reject the system there and then and subsequently die, it would probably be likely that they'd end up going crazy. By giving them the option you would most likely end up seriously affecting their lives... and not for the best either.

Please don't even try and make them out to be comepltly ignorant of us. Infact it puts them more at risk because then they don't know whats out there and waiting in the shadows. Ghost stories is the way your system accounts for them and keeps the act going even with all the hitches. Read the paper and you see these stories throughout it dipiciting the fights they carry out in every district. No they can very much see them and even if they couldn't the feeling is still there. Also might I remind you that Anome and the Intruder were very real to some bluepills and not just urban legends.

Mara was just an example and a fragment of what the city is full of. Your trying to make this city out to be some deserted wasteland to bluepills when in fact you can still find the same people throught the stores and churchs liveing their lives in the middle of this caos. Its the same everywhere. Tabor Park, Manseen, Murasaki, Creston Heights. All filled if with if not redpills then gang members all looking for something to shoot. How they interprit what is going on doesn't nullify the danger they are still in because those bullets may not be real to us but to them its quiet a diffrent story.

And I take it you forgot what the bluepill was for in all this. Makes you forget. The option to know the truth isn't some all powerful thing that once you know you can't forget about. How many blues out there have been aprotched and took the bluepill and are still liveing happily ever after? In fact I wonder if you have ever given thought to the idea of exactly what teh truth really is and why "No one can be told what the Matrix is". Our truth is so unbelieveable that the only people that could possibly give the idea any potintial to being true are either mind jobs are those that subconciously know it. Why is it safe to give everyone the option, because no one would take anyone up on it unless they are apart of that 1%.