Both of Sati's parents are religious.  The Machines simply recognize that there are many words for a hope of life after death, and morality.  We can call it religion, faith, karma, Heaven, whatever.

Also, privaron0, breaking a commandment doesn't equal a sentence to hell.  Repentance allows one into heaven, regardless of sin.  Theoretically.

Chemuel wrote:

Both of Sati's parents are religious.  The Machines simply recognize that there are many words for a hope of life after death, and morality.  We can call it religion, faith, karma, Heaven, whatever.

Also, privaron0, breaking a commandment doesn't equal a sentence to hell.  Repentance allows one into heaven, regardless of sin.  Theoretically.

Agreed but basing an entire civilization on it's breaking through multiple generations does.

No.

A program never ceases to function and the hardware simply goes the way of all flesh, all mineral, all chemical.

If you believe that Machines go to heaven, you'd have to believe that breaking a Microsoft Office 2007 CD would send that whole suite of programs to heaven when really, all you've done is sever a portion of the code making it unreadable. Were it required, the data could be recovered and repaired. Then, would the program be resurrected?

There is something else to a human being - that when it dies cannot be brought back, cannot be fixed, cannot be repaired, despite still-functioning organs.

This implies that while machines are bound to the earth, there is something within the human body which can transcend. The difference between Intelligence and Artificial Intelligence being this something. Whereas the human intelligence or soul has the ability to transcend as it may or may not stem from an ethereal plane of existence, the artificial intelligence was manufactured and stored on Earth, essentially within machine. While the physical location of the intelligence, which in this case is the soul, of the human being is unknown, the physical location of machine intelligence is known, and is unchanging.

On top of that, the absolution of sin was granted to God's children by Christ, not Man's children. Assuming that a Machine could make it to heaven somehow (I don't believe this would be possible as stated above) they coud technically be held accountable for every sin made in their so-called life. I don't think the genocide, the people-growing, the Matrix, et cetera would look too good on their slates.

As far as Eastern religions go:

Buddhism with the concept of Nirvana and the Four Noble Truths could work, I suppose. If a program is broken, a Machine is without power, what does it do? Nothing. There's your Nirvana. More household appliances shoud subscribe to this religion, then, I suppose.

Hinduism could work as well. Samsara is certainly applicable to those programs which are removed from their first hosts, go through the source, and are then put into another host, perhaps performing a different function. Through exile, the desired escape from the cycle could be accomplished as well, where a degree of freedom and englightenment are gained. Karma could be executed through the source - if a program was poor in its duties as a sentinel, it may end up with a recycling function its next time around, as deemed by the great task assigner within the Machine city (Deus Ex Machina?).

No.

A program never ceases to function and the hardware simply goes the way of all flesh, all mineral, all chemical.

If you believe that Machines go to heaven, you'd have to believe that breaking a Microsoft Office 2007 CD would send that whole suite of programs to heaven when really, all you've done is sever a portion of the code making it unreadable. Were it required, the data could be recovered and repaired. Then, would the program be resurrected?

There is something else to a human being - that when it dies cannot be brought back, cannot be fixed, cannot be repaired, despite still-functioning organs.

This implies that while machines are bound to the earth, there is something within the human body which can transcend. The difference between Intelligence and Artificial Intelligence being this something. Whereas the human intelligence or soul has the ability to transcend as it may or may not stem from an ethereal plane of existence, the artificial intelligence was manufactured and stored on Earth, essentially within machine. While the physical location of the intelligence, which in this case is the soul, of the human being is unknown, the physical location of machine intelligence is known, and is unchanging.

On top of that, the absolution of sin was granted to God's children by Christ, not Man's children. Assuming that a Machine could make it to heaven somehow (I don't believe this would be possible as stated above) they coud technically be held accountable for every sin made in their so-called life. I don't think the genocide, the people-growing, the Matrix, et cetera would look too good on their slates.

As far as Eastern religions go:

Buddhism with the concept of Nirvana and the Four Noble Truths could work, I suppose. If a program is broken, a Machine is without power, what does it do? Nothing. There's your Nirvana. More household appliances shoud subscribe to this religion, then, I suppose.

Hinduism could work as well. Samsara is certainly applicable to those programs which are removed from their first hosts, go through the source, and are then put into another host, perhaps performing a different function. Through exile, the desired escape from the cycle could be accomplished as well, where a degree of freedom and englightenment are gained. Karma could be executed through the source - if a program was poor in its duties as a sentinel, it may end up with a recycling function its next time around, as deemed by the great task assigner within the Machine city (Deus Ex Machina?).

No.

A program never ceases to function and the hardware simply goes the way of all flesh, all mineral, all chemical.

If you believe that Machines go to heaven, you'd have to believe that breaking a Microsoft Office 2007 CD would send that whole suite of programs to heaven when really, all you've done is sever a portion of the code making it unreadable. Were it required, the data could be recovered and repaired. Then, would the program be resurrected?

I'm sorry I didn't realise that a MS Office CD was sentient, I'll be more careful in future. A mind would never cease to function if it's 'hardware' was maintained. You're only talking about breaking what contains the data. Data could only be resurrected if it was lost. A broken CD hasn't lost data. You are being prejudiced against their form of life because they are sufficiently different in makeup than Humans which may afford them such abilities that we don't for example; repair, longer life etc...

Human religion is restricted to Human thinking, while this means that according to those religions, that are unable to adapt to the changing world, they may not be able to go, that doesn't mean they can't, especially if they subscribe to another religion, a religion that doesn't see Man as the only thing worthy of continued existance.

A God that would forgive his own creation of sin but would not forgive the creation of his creation, an extention of his Childrens life, is no God of mine. However, who is to say he hasn't granted the absolution of sin to the Machines?  Just because no Human has written it down in a Human written book of a Human religion? Man had their opportunity why can't the Machines?

((*CENSORED*, I hate pretending to be religious, it's too complicated))

If they didn't, where would all the calculators go?

((sorry red dwarf reference "The Last Day" Season 3, Episode 6))

That's all I kept on thinking about while reading this thread. In fact it was going to be my finishing argument!

Dave: Is Silicon Heaven the same as Human Heaven?

Kryten: Human Heaven? They just made that up to stop you from going crazy!

Coming from a religion that doesn't have a set of commandments, a devil, original sin, or eternal damnation, my perspective may be a bit different than most people here...

I would think that any intelligent or self-aware being -- human, AI, alien, whatever -- would end up in the same state after death...whether that's an afterlife, oblivion, or rejoining some kind of universal consciousness. 

Lyr

I'm 100% not in character here. This is just me talking about stuff, not arguing or whatever. Theological and philosophical suppositions, if you will.

But since everything to make a machine is earth-bound as is their intelligence, youc an either believe that they are without souls, or that their souls are manufactured. Either way, there's no connection to any sort of divine, and so there's no link to the heavenly plane. When a machine would break, that material soul, if it exists, simply decomposes. It doesn't mysteriousy disappear like the weight within a human being shortly before death (something like 3 grams, I believe?). The sentience doesn't mean a thing, because at the end of the day, it's just a chip in the computer. So if you think that a machine's going to go to heaven or anywhere other than the ground, you have to believe that your toaster and washer will be waiting for you there, too.

But it's all human religion, and that's correct. Mostly because Machines would probably find religion to be irrational to begin with, but also because religion stems from mysticism mostly during ancient times, and since there are no real prophets in the modern day, and there are no real prophets in the Matrix as far as I can tell. You can look at Neo as that messianic figure if you want to, but this game kind of voids the absolution he granted in Revolutions, reducing him to a mere diplomat instead of a savior. So there's really no origin point for any other religion, though I suppose the Machines may mystify the Source or something, though that is, as I have said, somewhat explainable through Hinduism, which seems to be the best bet the Machines would have.

The whole "they're not forgiven" thing I took from Christianity is just a logical interpretation. God can do whatever he or she likes, but all we have to understand the precedent and will of the divine by is the Bible (or in Islam the Qua'ran, or Judaism's Talmud), which is, honestly, as fallable as anything else and likely to have been written by hundreds if not thousands of different authors across different time periods. And the Bible says nothing about forgiving creations of mankind. So since there's nothing there, I can make the logical assumption that nothing is provided for creations of man and that they could be held accountable if they were capable of reaching the pearly gates.

But there's still nothing stopping God from saying "yeah, come on in" either way. Except that I still don't believe that since they are entirely material beings, that they are inable to transcend to a plane of the divine.

Coming from a religion that doesn't have a set of commandments, a devil, original sin, or eternal damnation, my perspective may be a bit different than most people here...

I would think that any intelligent or self-aware being -- human, AI, alien, whatever -- would end up in the same state after death...whether that's an afterlife, oblivion, or rejoining some kind of universal consciousness. 

 

 

Lyr

I'm 100% not in character here. This is just me talking about stuff, not arguing or whatever. Theological and philosophical suppositions, if you will.

I think sentience and self-awareness is a type of transcendence.  Once that level of trancendence above the physical world is achieved, through thought, I'd like to think that that creates a kind of kinetic energy that is capable of further trancendence beyond time/space contsraints. 

But since everything to make a machine is earth-bound as is their intelligence, youc an either believe that they are without souls, or that their souls are manufactured. Either way, there's no connection to any sort of divine, and so there's no link to the heavenly plane. When a machine would break, that material soul, if it exists, simply decomposes.

You could say something similar about humans.  My sentience is contained in my earth-bound, physical body.  How could a human be connected to the divine, in a way that a non-human sentient being wouldn't be? 

Illyria