Vinia wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?

its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.

So you think that the first Humans would just go along with what the Machines tell them?  When the Machines came to attack the first time, the Human inhabitants of Zion wouldn't have tried to hide their records to be found later on? It's a possibility, sure I can't deny it, but until you have proof that the Archive is a Machine fabrication it is the only reference to the origin of the conflict. Also why doesn't Zion alter it to suggest that the Machine attacked first?

If we are to doubt the only source available then who is to say that Mankind was ever free? Or even indigenous to the planet, we could have been grown in a Machine lab invented to provide the Machines with power...

Yes actully I do, seeings as the Machine has a talent for weaveing and selling very tall tales and makeing people believe what it wants them to. The archive shows nothing more then a black and white history which lets face it, history has never been that black and white.

And why not doubt it? Everything else has been fabricated. Zion's history, fake. Purpose for the pods, fake. First 10-20 years of our lives, fake. The prophacy, fake.

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?

its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.

So you think that the first Humans would just go along with what the Machines tell them? When the Machines came to attack the first time, the Human inhabitants of Zion wouldn't have tried to hide their records to be found later on? [...] Also why doesn't Zion alter it to suggest that the Machine attacked first?

It's a possibility, sure I can't deny it, but until you have proof that the Archive is a Machine fabrication it is the only reference to the origin of the conflict.

I've not known the Machines to Lie, to make stuff up. Sure they've not provided all of the details for events before and they've kept Humans in the simulation but it's the Humans who convinced themselves its real, the Machines just made a simulation as close to past society as possible and neglected to mention to the masses that it isn't real... but the absence of truth isn't a lie.

[...] but the absence of truth isn't a lie.

It is more likely that, if the Machines did plant the Archive there, it was to make humans realise that their enslavement was brought on by their own actions, and to convince them that the Machine race is superior to the Human race.

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?

its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.

So you think that the first Humans would just go along with what the Machines tell them?  When the Machines came to attack the first time, the Human inhabitants of Zion wouldn't have tried to hide their records to be found later on? It's a possibility, sure I can't deny it, but until you have proof that the Archive is a Machine fabrication it is the only reference to the origin of the conflict. Also why doesn't Zion alter it to suggest that the Machine attacked first?

If we are to doubt the only source available then who is to say that Mankind was ever free? Or even indigenous to the planet, we could have been grown in a Machine lab invented to provide the Machines with power...

Yes actully I do, seeings as the Machine has a talent for weaveing and selling very tall tales and makeing people believe what it wants them to. The archive shows nothing more then a black and white history which lets face it, history has never been that black and white.

And why not doubt it? Everything else has been fabricated. Zion's history, fake. Purpose for the pods, fake. First 10-20 years of our lives, fake. The prophacy, fake.

I don't remember the machine telling Zion their history that is done by Human assumption. The purpose for the pods is well known, just because they may not be the only source doesn't mean that they are unneeded. We convinced ourselves that our lives were real, the simulation was there to make us more comfortable we were never specifically told it is real and not a simulation. The prophecy again, depends on how you look at it... there was a man born that could bend the system to his will and that the one will show again. True the rest is Human telling tall tales around the core truth. The Machines give enough true information to let Humankind expand on the truth and believe in something.

As for the archive, it wasn't black and white, Man Vs. Machine. The original machine marches had humans mixed with them. It is more likely that, if the Machines did plant the Archive there, it was to make humans realise that their enslavement was brought on by their own actions, and to convince them that the Machine race is superior to the Human race.

Human assumption set into motion by whom? Every action has a reaction and you don't just start believing something without any reason to do so. As I said the Machine has a talent for what it does and is very good and seemingly eraseing its presence when needed but even so they are very much the one responcible for everyhting we think we know. After all look how much it has benifited them keeping Zion in the dark.

And yes the Archive is very much black and white. Color is only added once you get past the ideas it tries to push and start asking questions. Key elements such as the reasoning for actions or the actions of other groups are left out completly. Notice how there is no mention of any Machine that may have agreed with the ruleing? Or how the only mention of humans that disagreed was in a quick news report? The picture that the Archive paints is that we are to assume that it was simply Man vs Machine. But to give it some credit it does a lovely job (despite popular opinion) of keeping a netural stance and shows both sides flaws equally.

Human assumption set into motion by whom? Every action has a reaction and you don't just start believing something without any reason to do so. As I said the Machine has a talent for what it does and is very good and seemingly eraseing its presence when needed but even so they are very much the one responcible for everyhting we think we know. After all look how much it has benifited them keeping Zion in the dark.

GamiSB wrote:

Human assumption set into motion by whom? Every action has a reaction and you don't just start believing something without any reason to do so. As I said the Machine has a talent for what it does and is very good and seemingly eraseing its presence when needed but even so they are very much the one responcible for everyhting we think we know. After all look how much it has benifited them keeping Zion in the dark.

As I said in order to get someone to think in such a way or to believe in something you only need to give them a tiny bit of information and the truth is easier to seed than a falsehood. Humankind could choose to ignore the information but the mind has to build up around it to try to find more that what is present. It is Mankind's curiosity which sets assumption into motion. The Machines are good at what they do, they understand, albeit in a limited way, how a human mind works and use that knowledge to their advantage, but that doesn't mean that its an outright lie.

Exactly what information is being presented to tell us any different? It wasn't until we started asking that it suddenly became clear and even then we have had to fight tooth and nail to get what little knowledge we have of the truth in the first place. Sorry but everything humanity has been given and told was clearly apart of the machine's control and never intended to be factual in anyway unless it fit into the Machine's plan.

The system even now fights to maintain its lies and anyone who tries to not ignore it is hunted down. Who runs and created the system? The Machine
The prophecy was told to keep us all in line only to lead us to obliteration. Who was it that came up with this idea in the first place? The Machine.

The history of this war is no different then any of these and has no other purpose then to confuse, cover up, and keep Zion in the dark as to what really did happen. Is everything in it bull crap? No idea but given the Machine's current track record it certainly looks like it.

I think we've gotten a little off-track here.  (Not that the current discussion isn't interesting, of course.)  My interest is in what this Zion captain was supposedly doing, which was killing bluepills who either got in his way or who wouldn't choose the red pill. 

Assuming these allegations are true, I am curious.  Did Zion know what he was doing, and if so, did they just look the other way, or did they condone his actions as strikes against the Machines' power source?  (Does Zion still look at the bluepills that aren't candidates for the red pill as enemies, like Morpheus told Neo, because they're still part of the system?)

And if Zion didn't know what this captain had been doing, would he have been subject to disciplinary action once they found out?  Or would Zion not have cared?

Illyria