Thanks Proc, you saved me the hassle of arranging the quotes out on a tree and explaining how the intricate ways of wording can impose meanings even if they aren't meant.

By only stating EPN and Zion and no one else, the suggestion is that only they can do it, backed up by subsequent (Highlighted) sentences in which the only Org pointed out was Zion.

A splinter of the mind could be, for example, someones view of a building which doesn't seem right. (I am of course refering to Beyond - The Animatrix) What is then required for people to continue living their lives as normal is for the system to correct the error thus erasing any outside influence on a persons perception...

Vinia wrote:

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Zion exists because there must be a choice; without it, there is only the Matrix.

Who are you to take our purpose away from us?

Whilst I had to stifle a bout of laughter I can still answer this.

The choice is to accept the simulation or not, nothing more, nothing less. Zion existed due to a process of the choice, a process which has since changed, there can still be a choice without Zion, bluepills make this decision without knowledge of Zion or its inhabitants. Try not to delude yourselfs, If Zion were to disappear tomorrow the choice would still exist. You are grasping at a defunct idea purpose in order to convince yourselves that you exist for a reason. I will not deny that before Neo's truce, Zion was a vital aspect of keeping the simulation working, but things change.

The only people who can take away your purpose are those who gave it to you and seeing as Zion was built due to the requirements of the Machines as a layer of control, they can certainly take it away again.

The decision to question the simulation or not would exist, but the means to facilitate that choice wouldn't. Cyphs and Machinists are working to keep people in the Matrix, since that's the architect's order; to keep people from being extracted. THAT is what I think Feng is getting at. Machinists(and certainly Cyphs) aren't offering the red to people as part of the choice, or performing any known extractions of their own. So people will continue to question, but if no one's getting out, they can't really act on the choice.

Purpose transcends what the creator gives the creation. We created the Machine with a purpose. Those Machine transcended it's purpose and became something more. The Machine created Zion with a purpose, and now Zion is doing the same. Zion(new and old) represents what is wrong with the Matrix, and as long as the Matrix is flawed, Zion will fulfill that purpose.

Read my post again. Take it slowly this time.

Read mine again, if you don't understand the argument comeing half way in then don't try and but in. The person it was directed to understood it and thats really all that matters. If I needed to clarify it for you or Vinia I did so in my last post and it would have been better to ask then jump right on in assumeing. ((its all been IC btw, much love to proc and vinia))

Vinia wrote:

A splinter of the mind could be, for example, someones view of a building which doesn't seem right. (I am of course refering to Beyond - The Animatrix) What is then required for people to continue living their lives as normal is for the system to correct the error thus erasing any outside influence on a persons perception...

That doesn't remove the splinter only what caused it. What happens when they go back to said building and nothing is the same as it was the day before. You don't think that doesn't say something to them and start them down that road? (The end of Beyond) What is requierd and what happens are two diffrent things.

((also since we are takeing non-canon sources as examples "A Life Less Empty" - Matrix Comics Vol 1 for the story of a member of the 1% that took the blue.))

 

I'm not saying that Zion doesn't have a purpose, I merely stated that the original purpose for which it was designed for has been removed. That purpose being the people who can wake bluepills. Machinists can do this, whether or not we do or not is another matter.

Vinia wrote:

A splinter of the mind could be, for example, someones view of a building which doesn't seem right. (I am of course refering to Beyond - The Animatrix) What is then required for people to continue living their lives as normal is for the system to correct the error thus erasing any outside influence on a persons perception...

That doesn't remove the splinter only what caused it. What happens when they go back to said building and nothing is the same as it was the day before. You don't think that doesn't say something to them and start them down that road? (The end of Beyond) What is requierd and what happens are two diffrent things.

((also since we are takeing non-canon sources as examples "A Life Less Empty" - Matrix Comics Vol 1 for the story of a member of the 1% that took the blue.))

((Always, unless stated specifically, IC in these threads! <3))

When they went back to the building the next day nothing was the same because it had all been demolished and a parking lot built thus an attempt by the system to remove a source of a splinter. Small Splinters can heal, a person is quite able to live life and ignore something if it's small. The larger problems and those who absolutely cannot accept what they see is another matter. They would need to be woken up, but that doesn't mean that Zion or EPN are required to do so. It isn't black or white, complete accepting or unaccepting, it can be something subtle that provokes the mind into thinking somethings wrong...

((Would love to see an LE which addresses the point of questioning bluepills either not getting extracted or beeing seen to by the Machinists, but until then I can only say what I believe will be the case as close as possible to what could happen, obviously within the confines of the story... Unfortunately not all aspects can be portrayed and I guess that I shouldn't have brought something to the debate which hasn't been canonised. Evidence is obviously key and I take most sources that have had approval from the WB as cannonish which is why I never refer to peoples RP))

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

A splinter of the mind could be, for example, someones view of a building which doesn't seem right. (I am of course refering to Beyond - The Animatrix) What is then required for people to continue living their lives as normal is for the system to correct the error thus erasing any outside influence on a persons perception...

That doesn't remove the splinter only what caused it. What happens when they go back to said building and nothing is the same as it was the day before. You don't think that doesn't say something to them and start them down that road? (The end of Beyond) What is requierd and what happens are two diffrent things.

((also since we are takeing non-canon sources as examples "A Life Less Empty" - Matrix Comics Vol 1 for the story of a member of the 1% that took the blue.))

((Always, unless stated specifically, IC in these threads! <3))

When they went back to the building the next day nothing was the same because it had all been demolished and a parking lot built thus an attempt by the system to remove a source of a splinter. Small Splinters can heal, a person is quite able to live life and ignore something if it's small. The larger problems and those who absolutely cannot accpet what they see is another matter. They would need to be woken up, but that doesn't mean that Zion or EPN are required to do so.

Of course, I will agree that small splinters (seeing a man jump accross rooftops for just a second being an example) can typically be shrugged off. However the person's mind is what plays the role in this not the system. If events like this continue to unfold then for awhile maybe they will still be able to shrug them off but it will come to a point when those tiny splinters start to merge together and beomce a giant splinter which can't be removed. It's really not such much removeing the splinter only ignoreing it.

Now my point was never that Zion and EPN were the only groups that had to do this only that they play the most active roles in the process that is very much needed (the freeing of minds that is not Zion/EPN freeing minds). If the Machine really wanted to criple Zion and EPN in a way I they could never recover from it would be to remove their self given purpose of freeing minds and have the Machine take it up instead.

xenin wrote:

Vinia wrote:

When did I say go and die? I'd rather prefer you stay in New Zion, look after the innocent children and civilians and prosper there, at least then I can try to persuade the Machines to leave you alone, but I know that you have no intentions of doing so.

If you truly know me as your statement suggests you do, you'd know that I care about more than just the blues, but as blues are the Human race, you're *CENSORED* right I care about them, in fact the only thing I care about more than the blues is the vision of the future, of Mankind and Machine united.

I probably won't see this future, most likely down to the actions of you and yours, so making sure bluepills survive past my expiration matters more to me than anything.

 You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.

You obviously haven't read the previous posts, I'm not attempting to stop the 1% who cannot accept the simulation from waking. I just said that we do not need Zion to wake them up to allow the simulation to run normally, this is shown by the system being declared out of bounds to Zionites. If Zion still had an essential function it would not be efficient for the Machines to attempt to stop them.

No Machinist I have heard of has ever 'shoved' bluepills down anyones throat, the only people to do that are the Cypherites. Also, it is only the dead in the pods who get recycled not living bluepills, I can't believe that you would think that if bluepills do not wish to join the Machinists that they'd get recycled... The only place where you could have gotten that idea is from Zion propaganda.

The majority of Machinists are redpills 'freed' by Zion who have agreed with or see the benefit of working with the Machines we do not wake bluepills specifically to bolster our forces, not when we get a steady number leaving Zion to join us. If you are not going to let the redpills join us then you are prohibiting them their choice... something which I thought you so passionately want everyone to have freedom of... or is the correct choice only something which you approve of?

 The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong. 

 As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed.

 What I have a Problem with is that The Machines are trying to Stop Zion from extracting Bluepills from the Matrix and that they themselves will do it, possibly to fill their ranks in the fight against Zion THAT is what I have a problem with. If You do continue to do that, then we will NEVER listen to your "out of Bounds" nonsense and will continue to extract the 1% from the Matrix as we see fit.

 Also I see you lot don't have a problem with The Mervs extracting Bluepills from the Matrix to the Merovingian's Ranks, unless of course your endorsing his Organisation over ours, are you?

The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong.

Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..."
Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.

 As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed.

Ok... so how many paces do you give them before shooting them in their backs? lol! Choice indeed... does that freedom end after they've joined Zion?

 What I have a Problem with is that The Machines are trying to Stop Zion from extracting Bluepills from the Matrix and that they themselves will do it, possibly to fill their ranks in the fight against Zion THAT is what I have a problem with. If You do continue to do that, then we will NEVER listen to your "out of Bounds" nonsense and will continue to extract the 1% from the Matrix as we see fit.

That's the point, you're not doing it as you see fit... you're constantly under pressure from the system waking teams are under constant threat... Gami has asked me for proof that Machines or Machinists are waking bluepills. I could offer none, so I doubt that you can prove otherwise. Do you really believe that the Machines are preventing you from waking bluepills just so they can do it themselves to add to their 'Army'? Just because Zion recruits to their military doesn't mean that Machinists or the Machines are... If you hold the Choice so dear to your heart, does it really matter who wakes them as long as they have been awakened and let them make their own decisions?

 Also I see you lot don't have a problem with The Mervs extracting Bluepills from the Matrix to the Merovingian's Ranks, unless of course your endorsing his Organisation over ours, are you?

Lol, I didn't realise it had to be endorsed! However, seeing that we are at war with Zion and not the Merv, I think that you're a little higher up on the scale of attention then they are... but what you see and what is actually happening are two different things...

That's the point, you're not doing it as you see fit... you're constantly under pressure from the system waking teams are under constant threat... Gami has asked me for proof that Machines or Machinists are waking bluepills. I could offer none, so I doubt that you can prove otherwise. Do you really believe that the Machines are preventing you from waking bluepills just so they can do it themselves to add to their 'Army'? Just because Zion recruits to their military doesn't mean that Machinists or the Machines are... If you hold the Choice so dear to your heart, does it really matter who wakes them as long as they have been awakened and let them make their own decisions?

Actully I was asking for evidence that the Machine can "remove the splinter". Personlly I give everyone (minus Cyphs) the benifit of the doubt that they are wakeing blues when able or needed.

Just saying.

Vinia wrote:

That's the point, you're not doing it as you see fit... you're constantly under pressure from the system waking teams are under constant threat... Gami has asked me for proof that Machines or Machinists are waking bluepills. I could offer none, so I doubt that you can prove otherwise. Do you really believe that the Machines are preventing you from waking bluepills just so they can do it themselves to add to their 'Army'? Just because Zion recruits to their military doesn't mean that Machinists or the Machines are... If you hold the Choice so dear to your heart, does it really matter who wakes them as long as they have been awakened and let them make their own decisions?

Actully I was asking for evidence that the Machine can "remove the splinter". Personlly I give everyone (minus Cyphs) the benifit of the doubt that they are wakeing blues when able or needed.

Just saying.

xenin wrote:

The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong.

Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..."
Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.

Vinia wrote:

xenin wrote:

The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong.

Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..."
Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.

In all fairness, is there a point of reference for this agreement where Machinists or "others" are allowed to continue awakenings after what the Architect said? Not saying it doesn't exist, but for those just getting in on this discussion to see both sides of it.