ShiXinFeng wrote:Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix. Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"Can you prove that, if left alone to live their lives inside the simulation that all 600,000 bluepills will go mad and die? Neo lived just fine until he was released, and then he was a special case usually minds got released a lot younger. You don't have a precedent for saying that they will all go mad.Mankinds right to freedom? Who gave us that right? Wrongful imprisonment?! Mankind as a whole committed acts of atrocities against sentient beings. Now that not only they survived but are the dominant race on the planet, why are you so surprised? Your actions are what are keeping Mankind 'locked up' in their own world in which they can live their lives like our ancestors... not a totally bad deal considering what Mankind tried to do with the Machines....We protect them and the system so that when Mankind can prove that we are not a barbaric as we once were, and as a Race decide that we can live with the Machines and repair the damage we did to the earth... then there will still be a Humanity as we know it left
Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix. Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"
Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.
Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"
Prove? No, I am no scientist. But, allow me to redirect your question. Can you, given the examples of problems such as Anome's mother, prove that they won't?
All sentient life has a right to be free. I do not condone what our ancestors did to the first generations of self-aware machines. I believe the human society of that day was simply not prepared to deal with the philosophical ramifications of Machines as equal thinkers, when only the day before (metaphorically speaking, of course) those same machines were merely property. However, that is neither here nor there, and can't be changed no matter how fervently we wish for it to be.
So, accepting this right to freedom as truth, do you propose that mankind be punished for all eternity, with only a destiny of slavery and lies, for the sins of our fathers?
And how do you propose to console that which is inconsolable in matters of trust and peace? The Machines have made it perfectly clear that they will only trust humans so long as they can exercise control over us.
ShiXinFeng wrote:Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix. Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"The lives -- or the mental health -- of an elite few do not outweigh the lives of the vast majority of the human race. There is no caste system or apartheid here that says that an elite but tiny minority is better or more important than the billions (or millions) that make up the rest of the population. Illyria
The lives -- or the mental health -- of an elite few do not outweigh the lives of the vast majority of the human race. There is no caste system or apartheid here that says that an elite but tiny minority is better or more important than the billions (or millions) that make up the rest of the population.
Illyria
Let me paraphrase: *CENSORED* the minority, so long as the status quo is upheld.
How noble. Surely you'll go down in the history books as one of the greatest contributing members of our species.
ugh... 6 pages of this endless bickering...
its boiled down to "You need to behave!" "I dont have to behave!"
Childish
Illyria22 wrote:ShiXinFeng wrote:Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix. Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"The lives -- or the mental health -- of an elite few do not outweigh the lives of the vast majority of the human race. There is no caste system or apartheid here that says that an elite but tiny minority is better or more important than the billions (or millions) that make up the rest of the population. Illyria Let me paraphrase: *CENSORED* the minority, so long as the status quo is upheld.How noble. Surely you'll go down in the history books as one of the greatest contributing members of our species.
Vinia wrote:ShiXinFeng wrote:Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix. Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"Can you prove that, if left alone to live their lives inside the simulation that all 600,000 bluepills will go mad and die? Neo lived just fine until he was released, and then he was a special case usually minds got released a lot younger. You don't have a precedent for saying that they will all go mad.Mankinds right to freedom? Who gave us that right? Wrongful imprisonment?! Mankind as a whole committed acts of atrocities against sentient beings. Now that not only they survived but are the dominant race on the planet, why are you so surprised? Your actions are what are keeping Mankind 'locked up' in their own world in which they can live their lives like our ancestors... not a totally bad deal considering what Mankind tried to do with the Machines....We protect them and the system so that when Mankind can prove that we are not a barbaric as we once were, and as a Race decide that we can live with the Machines and repair the damage we did to the earth... then there will still be a Humanity as we know it left So, accepting this right to freedom as truth, do you propose that mankind be punished for all eternity, with only a destiny of slavery and lies, for the sins of our fathers?And how do you propose to console that which is inconsolable in matters of trust and peace? The Machines have made it perfectly clear that they will only trust humans so long as they can exercise control over us.
Neoteny wrote: I don't get what the Intruder has to do with anything, at least concerning the topic we've been discussing, or why you folks keep accusing me of not reading anything. I've read every damned statement you've written, and made a response. Exactly why I say you do not register what we say. I will make this as easy as I can for you. We protect the Bluepills against threats to the system, you are not the only threat to the system, and you are because you've stated that you are agressors ever since the Machines changed their mandate towards Zion. The Intruder is such a threat and is directly relevant to the argument. When he first arrived he managed to disrupt the lives of bluepills in the vicinity, creating panic and a disturbance. His appearance could cause some people to summarily reject the simulation, ie killing them. His powers of controlling System programs are a direct threat as System Agents are there to protect the system. Granted, the bloody Cypherites provoked it but that doesn't mean that it is a force for peace. Until it's intentions are made clear it will be viewed as a threat to the Simulation and the Bluepills.If you really care for bluepills the way Zion says it does you would be concerned about it too.
I don't get what the Intruder has to do with anything, at least concerning the topic we've been discussing, or why you folks keep accusing me of not reading anything. I've read every damned statement you've written, and made a response.
Exactly why I say you do not register what we say. I will make this as easy as I can for you. We protect the Bluepills against threats to the system, you are not the only threat to the system, and you are because you've stated that you are agressors ever since the Machines changed their mandate towards Zion. The Intruder is such a threat and is directly relevant to the argument. When he first arrived he managed to disrupt the lives of bluepills in the vicinity, creating panic and a disturbance. His appearance could cause some people to summarily reject the simulation, ie killing them. His powers of controlling System programs are a direct threat as System Agents are there to protect the system. Granted, the bloody Cypherites provoked it but that doesn't mean that it is a force for peace. Until it's intentions are made clear it will be viewed as a threat to the Simulation and the Bluepills.
If you really care for bluepills the way Zion says it does you would be concerned about it too.
This hadn't been mentioned before, and has little to do with this particular discussion, argument... whatever. Hell, this topic came about before the Intruder even entered the picture.
So, additionally, you're trying to protect the bluepills and the System from the Intruder... So? We're not the only threat, I get that. But my concern lay more with why our actions, as Zionites were considered hostile to the bluepills and, in the beginning, the System, as we had taken no action other than building a fortified city.
And, if you are going to launch the argument that a fortified city allows us to somehow take actions which were previously outside of the Truce (i.e. awakening more than the one percent), I again ask, why? Were we given any time to prove that we could avoid taking such actions? Have we since taken such actions? Where is any proof that Zion would have taken such actions under the Truce agreement? Why found a war on assumption?
Why found a war on assumption?
Neoteny wrote:Why found a war on assumption?Why build a fortified city when, with the truce, such a city was unneeded. I can understand the need to expand for the benefit of Zion's population. However, the Machines did not show any sign of wanting to storm Zion's walls, in fact the city was planned for at the beginning of the truce... it was built even when you were showing the face of trust and cooperation. Your leadership did not even want the truce to continue into peace...And the city's planning began when Anome locked Niobe away in a construct. Anyhow... This, again, is assumption. Zion never expressly came to the Machines and said "we wish to re-initiate hostilities, please attack us and destroy the city of Zion." We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.The fact of the matter is that there were enough of us in Zion, including yours truly, who supported the Truce to an extreme degree that we would have deposed any attempts to subvert the Truce in a minimal timeframe. But the Machines didn't trust us to sort our own affairs, and so there is war.And I'll tell you why there is war. There is war because there is fear - not in the hearts of men who are brave enough to risk their one and only life to enter the Matrix to grant the human right of liberty, but in the cold, glowing red eyes of the steel Machine. The Machine who sees only the past, and only the evil. The Machine who fears war to the point that they would enact it. The Machine that values its power supply, not its fellow inhabitants of the planet earth.It is actions against the system which could affect the bluepills. You were first considered a threat to the system and by extension, the bluepills by your continued accessing of the system and your new found aggression to the owners of it. What aggression? The continuation of operations which were perfectly legal during Truce-time and have since been demonized? Please specify.Would you allow time to people (1) who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but (2) considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.(1) If this is true, then we had already lost. It was evident enough with the Cypherites, but without trust, there is no possibility for peace. And make no mistake - trust in this scenario was not building, it was waning.(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.
Why build a fortified city when, with the truce, such a city was unneeded. I can understand the need to expand for the benefit of Zion's population. However, the Machines did not show any sign of wanting to storm Zion's walls, in fact the city was planned for at the beginning of the truce... it was built even when you were showing the face of trust and cooperation. Your leadership did not even want the truce to continue into peace...
And the city's planning began when Anome locked Niobe away in a construct. Anyhow... This, again, is assumption. Zion never expressly came to the Machines and said "we wish to re-initiate hostilities, please attack us and destroy the city of Zion." We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.
The fact of the matter is that there were enough of us in Zion, including yours truly, who supported the Truce to an extreme degree that we would have deposed any attempts to subvert the Truce in a minimal timeframe. But the Machines didn't trust us to sort our own affairs, and so there is war.
And I'll tell you why there is war. There is war because there is fear - not in the hearts of men who are brave enough to risk their one and only life to enter the Matrix to grant the human right of liberty, but in the cold, glowing red eyes of the steel Machine. The Machine who sees only the past, and only the evil. The Machine who fears war to the point that they would enact it. The Machine that values its power supply, not its fellow inhabitants of the planet earth.
It is actions against the system which could affect the bluepills. You were first considered a threat to the system and by extension, the bluepills by your continued accessing of the system and your new found aggression to the owners of it.
What aggression? The continuation of operations which were perfectly legal during Truce-time and have since been demonized? Please specify.Would you allow time to people (1) who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but (2) considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.
(1) If this is true, then we had already lost. It was evident enough with the Cypherites, but without trust, there is no possibility for peace. And make no mistake - trust in this scenario was not building, it was waning.
(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.
Neoteny wrote:Why found a war on assumption?Why build a fortified city when, with the truce, such a city was unneeded. I can understand the need to expand for the benefit of Zion's population. However, the Machines did not show any sign of wanting to storm Zion's walls, in fact the city was planned for at the beginning of the truce... it was built even when you were showing the face of trust and cooperation. Your leadership did not even want the truce to continue into peace...It is actions against the system which could affect the bluepills. You were first considered a threat to the system and by extension, the bluepills by your continued accessing of the system and your new found aggression to the owners of it. Would you allow time to people who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.The issue of the Intruder has been mentioned before, not by name but was implied when talking about threats to the system other than Zion and is more than relevant now. Conversations, debates and arguments are not limited to the past.
Sweetheart, you got it bad. I mean, seriously, how much of a dent do you think Zion could put in the Machine forces from way down in their little bunker-city? Could they destroy the Machine City? Could they destroy the Matrix even? Hell no, the only one who could do that was Neo, and he's not here any more, is he?
And, when you think about it, the only time they were really scared of Neo was when they thought they had lost control over him. The Power of the One is all the Machines fear, so unless. . .he's. . .
Oh.
Oh God.
*scrambles for an Exit*
null
Neoteny wrote:Why found a war on assumption?Why build a fortified city when, with the truce, such a city was unneeded. I can understand the need to expand for the benefit of Zion's population. However, the Machines did not show any sign of wanting to storm Zion's walls, in fact the city was planned for at the beginning of the truce... it was built even when you were showing the face of trust and cooperation. Your leadership did not even want the truce to continue into peace...And the city's planning began when Anome locked Niobe away in a construct. Wrong According to NiobeAnyhow... This, again, is assumption. Zion never expressly came to the Machines and said "we wish to re-initiate hostilities, please attack us and destroy the city of Zion." Lol! I don't think any wars start like that. They do start when truces get violated though and keeping it a secret didn't help much either....We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.Your own self fulfilling ProphecyThe fact of the matter is that there were enough of us in Zion, including yours truly, who supported the Truce to an extreme degree that we would have deposed any attempts to subvert the Truce in a minimal timeframe. But the Machines didn't trust us to sort our own affairs, and so there is war.So you were going to overthrow your own civilian and Military leaders?And I'll tell you why there is war. There is war because there is fear - not in the hearts of men who are brave enough to risk their one and only life to enter the Matrix to grant the human right of liberty, but in the cold, glowing red eyes of the steel Machine. The Machine who sees only the past, and only the evil. The Machine who fears war to the point that they would enact it. The Machine that values its power supply, not its fellow inhabitants of the planet earth.I cannot deny the fear of the Machines, but without fear Mankind would not have decided to build the new city right after the beginning of the truce. The Machines do not fear war, they fear being wiped out as any race would. If they did not value humankind the Machinists wouldn't be.It is actions against the system which could affect the bluepills. You were first considered a threat to the system and by extension, the bluepills by your continued accessing of the system and your new found aggression to the owners of it. What aggression? The continuation of operations which were perfectly legal during Truce-time and have since been demonized? Please specify.What don't you get? Peace time operations were turned into prohibited operations.... yes that is aggressive saying that you will not abide by the prohibitations, so is attacking Machine programs and attempting to circumvent Machine security.Also these records show that you are not just carrying on normal operations that were legal during peacetime;http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300014997http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300017153http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300016367http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300015865http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300015253http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300014997Most, if not all show Zion engaging in combat with Agents and System security personnel. This was certainly not normal or legal during the truce.Would you allow time to people (1) who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but (2) considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.(1) If this is true, then we had already lost. It was evident enough with the Cypherites, but without trust, there is no possibility for peace. And make no mistake - trust in this scenario was not building, it was waning.It is up to the untrusted to build trust. If the Machines trust was waning, you should have tried to increase it... you can't blame anyone but yourself.(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.
And the city's planning began when Anome locked Niobe away in a construct.
Wrong According to Niobe
Anyhow... This, again, is assumption. Zion never expressly came to the Machines and said "we wish to re-initiate hostilities, please attack us and destroy the city of Zion."
Lol! I don't think any wars start like that. They do start when truces get violated though and keeping it a secret didn't help much either....
We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.
Your own self fulfilling Prophecy
So you were going to overthrow your own civilian and Military leaders?
I cannot deny the fear of the Machines, but without fear Mankind would not have decided to build the new city right after the beginning of the truce. The Machines do not fear war, they fear being wiped out as any race would. If they did not value humankind the Machinists wouldn't be.
What aggression? The continuation of operations which were perfectly legal during Truce-time and have since been demonized? Please specify.
What don't you get? Peace time operations were turned into prohibited operations.... yes that is aggressive saying that you will not abide by the prohibitations, so is attacking Machine programs and attempting to circumvent Machine security.
Also these records show that you are not just carrying on normal operations that were legal during peacetime;
http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300014997
http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300017153
http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300016367
http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300015865
http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300015253
Most, if not all show Zion engaging in combat with Agents and System security personnel. This was certainly not normal or legal during the truce.
Would you allow time to people (1) who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but (2) considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.
It is up to the untrusted to build trust. If the Machines trust was waning, you should have tried to increase it... you can't blame anyone but yourself.
No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.
Vinia wrote:And the city's planning began when Anome locked Niobe away in a construct. Wrong According to NiobeI was thinking of this. So maybe it was thought up and worked on at the beginning of the Truce, but wasn't begun until the whole Anome incident. I think Niobe gives some fairly good reasons why what was done was done in that particular information feed, anyhow. But thanks for getting my facts straight.Anyhow... This, again, is assumption. Zion never expressly came to the Machines and said "we wish to re-initiate hostilities, please attack us and destroy the city of Zion." Lol! I don't think any wars start like that. They do start when truces get violated though and keeping it a secret didn't help much either....If you think a base is an act of hostility, and that we initiated the war near the beginning of the Truce, then maybe you ought to consider who was overwritten and for what purpose at about the same time. Then consider the kill differential between that particular group and the protective devices of New Zion.We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.Your own self fulfilling ProphecyIs it? We had no say in the matter of whether or not the strike would come. That was their choice, not ours. We were just prepared.The fact of the matter is that there were enough of us in Zion, including yours truly, who supported the Truce to an extreme degree that we would have deposed any attempts to subvert the Truce in a minimal timeframe. But the Machines didn't trust us to sort our own affairs, and so there is war.So you were going to overthrow your own civilian and Military leaders?You'd better believe I would have. I'd be willing to bet that most freeborns would have, too. Putting them at risk of war for nothing? That's a grave offense. But the fact of the matter remains that we didn't break the Truce. At least not by any means we were to understand.And I'll tell you why there is war. There is war because there is fear - not in the hearts of men who are brave enough to risk their one and only life to enter the Matrix to grant the human right of liberty, but in the cold, glowing red eyes of the steel Machine. The Machine who sees only the past, and only the evil. The Machine who fears war to the point that they would enact it. The Machine that values its power supply, not its fellow inhabitants of the planet earth.I cannot deny the fear of the Machines, but without fear Mankind would not have decided to build the new city right after the beginning of the truce. The Machines do not fear war, they fear being wiped out as any race would. If they did not value humankind the Machinists wouldn't be.They're going to be "wiped out" by a bunch of humans in an inaccesible bunker? Pardon me if I find the notion laughable. As for valuation of humankind? They deny the option of extraction altogether now. I maintain that they're using you folks, and if it ever gets the point that we're all wiped out and you've outlived your usefulness, you'd better pray I'm wrong.It is actions against the system which could affect the bluepills. You were first considered a threat to the system and by extension, the bluepills by your continued accessing of the system and your new found aggression to the owners of it. What aggression? The continuation of operations which were perfectly legal during Truce-time and have since been demonized? Please specify.What don't you get? Peace time operations were turned into prohibited operations.... yes that is aggressive saying that you will not abide by the prohibitations, so is attacking Machine programs and attempting to circumvent Machine security.Also these records show that you are not just carrying on normal operations that were legal during peacetime;Most, if not all show Zion engaging in combat with Agents and System security personnel. This was certainly not normal or legal during the truce. Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.Would you allow time to people (1) who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but (2) considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.(1) If this is true, then we had already lost. It was evident enough with the Cypherites, but without trust, there is no possibility for peace. And make no mistake - trust in this scenario was not building, it was waning.It is up to the untrusted to build trust. If the Machines trust was waning, you should have tried to increase it... you can't blame anyone but yourself.Who is the trusted, and who is the untrusted? You're only looking at it from their angle. Maybe they should've done more to increase our waning trust. After all, we were the party that had been duped by the Matrix and the recursive cycle of the One. We were the party that faced the threat of elimination in this war and wars past. But what they did was found a murderous organization known as the Cypherites and demand access to our mainframe. Surely they couldn't have thought asking for such access would increase our trust?(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.Either way, you're saying there's no hope.
And the city's planning began when Anome locked Niobe away in a construct. Wrong According to NiobeI was thinking of this. So maybe it was thought up and worked on at the beginning of the Truce, but wasn't begun until the whole Anome incident. I think Niobe gives some fairly good reasons why what was done was done in that particular information feed, anyhow. But thanks for getting my facts straight.Anyhow... This, again, is assumption. Zion never expressly came to the Machines and said "we wish to re-initiate hostilities, please attack us and destroy the city of Zion." Lol! I don't think any wars start like that. They do start when truces get violated though and keeping it a secret didn't help much either....If you think a base is an act of hostility, and that we initiated the war near the beginning of the Truce, then maybe you ought to consider who was overwritten and for what purpose at about the same time. Then consider the kill differential between that particular group and the protective devices of New Zion.We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.Your own self fulfilling ProphecyIs it? We had no say in the matter of whether or not the strike would come. That was their choice, not ours. We were just prepared.The fact of the matter is that there were enough of us in Zion, including yours truly, who supported the Truce to an extreme degree that we would have deposed any attempts to subvert the Truce in a minimal timeframe. But the Machines didn't trust us to sort our own affairs, and so there is war.So you were going to overthrow your own civilian and Military leaders?You'd better believe I would have. I'd be willing to bet that most freeborns would have, too. Putting them at risk of war for nothing? That's a grave offense. But the fact of the matter remains that we didn't break the Truce. At least not by any means we were to understand.And I'll tell you why there is war. There is war because there is fear - not in the hearts of men who are brave enough to risk their one and only life to enter the Matrix to grant the human right of liberty, but in the cold, glowing red eyes of the steel Machine. The Machine who sees only the past, and only the evil. The Machine who fears war to the point that they would enact it. The Machine that values its power supply, not its fellow inhabitants of the planet earth.I cannot deny the fear of the Machines, but without fear Mankind would not have decided to build the new city right after the beginning of the truce. The Machines do not fear war, they fear being wiped out as any race would. If they did not value humankind the Machinists wouldn't be.They're going to be "wiped out" by a bunch of humans in an inaccesible bunker? Pardon me if I find the notion laughable. As for valuation of humankind? They deny the option of extraction altogether now. I maintain that they're using you folks, and if it ever gets the point that we're all wiped out and you've outlived your usefulness, you'd better pray I'm wrong.It is actions against the system which could affect the bluepills. You were first considered a threat to the system and by extension, the bluepills by your continued accessing of the system and your new found aggression to the owners of it. What aggression? The continuation of operations which were perfectly legal during Truce-time and have since been demonized? Please specify.What don't you get? Peace time operations were turned into prohibited operations.... yes that is aggressive saying that you will not abide by the prohibitations, so is attacking Machine programs and attempting to circumvent Machine security.Also these records show that you are not just carrying on normal operations that were legal during peacetime;Most, if not all show Zion engaging in combat with Agents and System security personnel. This was certainly not normal or legal during the truce. Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.Would you allow time to people (1) who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but (2) considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.(1) If this is true, then we had already lost. It was evident enough with the Cypherites, but without trust, there is no possibility for peace. And make no mistake - trust in this scenario was not building, it was waning.It is up to the untrusted to build trust. If the Machines trust was waning, you should have tried to increase it... you can't blame anyone but yourself.Who is the trusted, and who is the untrusted? You're only looking at it from their angle. Maybe they should've done more to increase our waning trust. After all, we were the party that had been duped by the Matrix and the recursive cycle of the One. We were the party that faced the threat of elimination in this war and wars past. But what they did was found a murderous organization known as the Cypherites and demand access to our mainframe. Surely they couldn't have thought asking for such access would increase our trust?(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.Either way, you're saying there's no hope.
I was thinking of this. So maybe it was thought up and worked on at the beginning of the Truce, but wasn't begun until the whole Anome incident. I think Niobe gives some fairly good reasons why what was done was done in that particular information feed, anyhow. But thanks for getting my facts straight.
If you think a base is an act of hostility, and that we initiated the war near the beginning of the Truce, then maybe you ought to consider who was overwritten and for what purpose at about the same time. Then consider the kill differential between that particular group and the protective devices of New Zion.
Is it? We had no say in the matter of whether or not the strike would come. That was their choice, not ours. We were just prepared.
You'd better believe I would have. I'd be willing to bet that most freeborns would have, too. Putting them at risk of war for nothing? That's a grave offense. But the fact of the matter remains that we didn't break the Truce. At least not by any means we were to understand.
They're going to be "wiped out" by a bunch of humans in an inaccesible bunker? Pardon me if I find the notion laughable. As for valuation of humankind? They deny the option of extraction altogether now. I maintain that they're using you folks, and if it ever gets the point that we're all wiped out and you've outlived your usefulness, you'd better pray I'm wrong.
Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.Would you allow time to people (1) who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but (2) considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.
Who is the trusted, and who is the untrusted? You're only looking at it from their angle. Maybe they should've done more to increase our waning trust. After all, we were the party that had been duped by the Matrix and the recursive cycle of the One. We were the party that faced the threat of elimination in this war and wars past. But what they did was found a murderous organization known as the Cypherites and demand access to our mainframe. Surely they couldn't have thought asking for such access would increase our trust?
