Pyraci wrote:Vinia wrote:xenin wrote:The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong. Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..." Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.In all fairness, is there a point of reference for this agreement where Machinists or "others" are allowed to continue awakenings after what the Architect said? Not saying it doesn't exist, but for those just getting in on this discussion to see both sides of it. Hence the reason why I said it was reasonable to assume. Given what we've discussed in this thread about the 1% requiring waking to prevent any complications and that the Machines are trying to prevent Zion and EPN from waking bluepills that really leaves Machinists and Merv Operatives who can wake them but there is nothing to show that they have done so. The only point of reference is the truce itself and none of us Zion/Merv/Machinist has seen the full details of the truce. However the truce dictated what Zion and the Machines could do within/out the system, if the Machines had allowed Zion to wake bluepills but not the possibility for their own to do it, it would have been a mistake imo. The only other way is to analyse the Architects wording which can be taken either way, but for me, the evidence as discussed would point, logically to what I postulated.
Vinia wrote:xenin wrote:The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong. Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..." Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.In all fairness, is there a point of reference for this agreement where Machinists or "others" are allowed to continue awakenings after what the Architect said? Not saying it doesn't exist, but for those just getting in on this discussion to see both sides of it.
xenin wrote:The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong. Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..." Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.
The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong. Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..." Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.
Considering that there 1% chance people become aware of the Matrix, considering that Machinists and Mervs may possibly awaken bluepills and considering that the Machines will carry on Hostilities after the Intruder is gone, I think Zion will continue to extract Humans from the Matrix Regardless of what the Machines think or say.
Also, Vinia, there aren't really that many choices in War. So Yeah you can chose to switch sides, but I didn't say there was a choice of how long you had to live, that's up to the individual to make his own choices and to survive. We simply can't take the chance because of Cypherite terrorists on the prowl. You may have to kill Zionite or EPN spies too if you deemed them a security risk, sometimes keeping them prisoners is too high a risk.
Lots of things to respond to in this thread...
AlphaCoder wrote:
You mean to tell me you don't think/see how telling them they have been living a lie is practically a guarantee that they will pop that stupid red pill? "You've been living a lie, discover the truth". You think people are going to turn that down, once you have said that they don't listen to the rest of what you tell them, they are too busy wondering what the hell "the truth" is gunna be after being blissfully ignorant for however long.
This is the main argument against giving the bluepills a *conscious* choice whether or not to take the red or blue pill. It gives too much away, and alot of people who never would have questioned the simulation otherwise will have their curiosity get the better of them. Then they're stuck in the desert of the real, unable to go back, and forever regretting the choice they made. That sounds like the perfect way to make more Cypherites.
xenin wrote:
You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.
So much for the freedom of choice Zion and EPN are always talking about. People are free to choose, but only if they pick the 'right' choice. Who's to say that every bluepill you free will want to stay with the org that extracted them? Will you keep them imprisoned in New Zion, or will they not be permitted to live?
As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed.
Oh wait, you answered my question right there.
Pyraci wrote:
In all fairness, is there a point of reference for this agreement where Machinists or "others" are allowed to continue awakenings after what the Architect said? Not saying it doesn't exist, but for those just getting in on this discussion to see both sides of it.
We were told that awakenings (by Zion/EPN or by Machinists) are no longer permitted. I can't tell you if the Machines themselves are doing it. Maybe that's where bluepills like Mary MacHenry are going.
If in the future New Zion is destroyed, the Machines will still need a way to keep that 1% from disrupting the system. They would probably either rebuild Zion or build another version of Zion somewhere else. It would be ironic if, in order to keep things running, they chose Machinists as the founding population!
Vinia wrote:
I care about more than just the blues, but as blues are the Human race, you're *CENSORED* right I care about them, in fact the only thing I care about more than the blues is the vision of the future, of Mankind and Machine united.
I probably won't see this future, most likely down to the actions of you and yours, so making sure bluepills survive past my expiration matters more to me than anything.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I want a future where humans and AI will live as part of the same society, not with one side dominating and one side dominated, and not ‘separate but equal' either. But I do understand that there is no quick fix, and that this will take time.
We may not see this future, but I hope our descendents will.
Illyria
AlphaCoder wrote:You mean to tell me you don't think/see how telling them they have been living a lie is practically a guarantee that they will pop that stupid red pill? "You've been living a lie, discover the truth". You think people are going to turn that down, once you have said that they don't listen to the rest of what you tell them, they are too busy wondering what the hell "the truth" is gunna be after being blissfully ignorant for however long.This is the main argument against giving the bluepills a *conscious* choice whether or not to take the red or blue pill. It gives too much away, and alot of people who never would have questioned the simulation otherwise will have their curiosity get the better of them. Then they're stuck in the desert of the real, unable to go back, and forever regretting the choice they made. That sounds like the perfect way to make more Cypherites.
Lots of things to respond to in this thread...AlphaCoder wrote:You mean to tell me you don't think/see how telling them they have been living a lie is practically a guarantee that they will pop that stupid red pill? "You've been living a lie, discover the truth". You think people are going to turn that down, once you have said that they don't listen to the rest of what you tell them, they are too busy wondering what the hell "the truth" is gunna be after being blissfully ignorant for however long.This is the main argument against giving the bluepills a *conscious* choice whether or not to take the red or blue pill. It gives too much away, and alot of people who never would have questioned the simulation otherwise will have their curiosity get the better of them. Then they're stuck in the desert of the real, unable to go back, and forever regretting the choice they made. That sounds like the perfect way to make more Cypherites. xenin wrote: You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.So much for the freedom of choice Zion and EPN are always talking about. People are free to choose, but only if they pick the 'right' choice. Who's to say that every bluepill you free will want to stay with the org that extracted them? Will you keep them imprisoned in New Zion, or will they not be permitted to live? xenin wrote: As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed. Oh wait, you answered my question right there. Pyraci wrote:In all fairness, is there a point of reference for this agreement where Machinists or "others" are allowed to continue awakenings after what the Architect said? Not saying it doesn't exist, but for those just getting in on this discussion to see both sides of it. We were told that awakenings (by Zion/EPN or by Machinists) are no longer permitted. I can't tell you if the Machines themselves are doing it. Maybe that's where bluepills like Mary MacHenry are going. If in the future New Zion is destroyed, the Machines will still need a way to keep that 1% from disrupting the system. They would probably either rebuild Zion or build another version of Zion somewhere else. It would be ironic if, in order to keep things running, they chose Machinists as the founding population! Vinia wrote:I care about more than just the blues, but as blues are the Human race, you're *CENSORED* right I care about them, in fact the only thing I care about more than the blues is the vision of the future, of Mankind and Machine united. I probably won't see this future, most likely down to the actions of you and yours, so making sure bluepills survive past my expiration matters more to me than anything.I couldn't have said it better myself. I want a future where humans and AI will live as part of the same society, not with one side dominating and one side dominated, and not ‘separate but equal' either. But I do understand that there is no quick fix, and that this will take time. We may not see this future, but I hope our descendents will. Illyria
Oh look, here comes little Miss Perfect, The Holier Art Than Thou, the self rightchoues moron. You just did what some, if not most, Machinists do. You borrowed some of our quotes, twisted the meaning of the quote, in this case my quotes, and completely ignore whatever Zionites say thereafter.
Also I prefer you did NOT use my quotes for your Propaganda Machine. This was What I was trying to tell Vinia when she accused me of using supposed Propaganda, Machinists are no different than any other org.
Also I don't recall wanting you to use my quotes in that way, plus I was talking to Vinia, NEVER You. So kindly *CENSORED* off and get out of my face, you horrid little *CENSORED*.
Also I don't recall wanting your opinion, Cypherite, well your clearly no Machinist because of your attitude. Plus I was talking to Vinia, NEVER You. So kindly *CENSORED* off and get out of my face, you horrid little *CENSORED*.
((I would like to point out for legal reasons, that was all RP))
Illyria22 wrote: xenin wrote: You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.So much for the freedom of choice Zion and EPN are always talking about. People are free to choose, but only if they pick the 'right' choice. Who's to say that every bluepill you free will want to stay with the org that extracted them? Will you keep them imprisoned in New Zion, or will they not be permitted to live? xenin wrote: As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed. Oh wait, you answered my question right there.Illyria Oh look, here comes little Miss Perfect, The Holier Art Than Thou, the self rightchoues moron. You just did what some, if not most, Machinists do. You borrowed some of our quotes, twisted the meaning of the quote, in this case my quotes, and completely ignore whatever Zionites say thereafter. Also I prefer you did NOT use my quotes for your Propaganda Machine. This was What I was trying to tell Vinia when she accused me of using supposed Propaganda, Machinists are no different than any other org. Also I don't recall wanting your opinion, Cypherite, well your clearly no Machinist because of your attitude. Plus I was talking to Vinia, NEVER You. So kindly *CENSORED* off and get out of my face, you horrid little *CENSORED*. ((I would like to point out for legal reasons, that was all RP))
xenin wrote: You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.So much for the freedom of choice Zion and EPN are always talking about. People are free to choose, but only if they pick the 'right' choice. Who's to say that every bluepill you free will want to stay with the org that extracted them? Will you keep them imprisoned in New Zion, or will they not be permitted to live? xenin wrote: As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed. Oh wait, you answered my question right there.Illyria
Illyria is as welcome to post here as anyone is, she can also quote anything said by anyone if she wants to. When quoting she didn't alter any of your words, she merely highlighted what you said in the exact same context as you wrote it. If you didn't want her opinion, why post in a public forum?
Plus I said you must have been listening to propaganda or misinformation, I never stated that you were promulgating it intentionally.
As for your disgraceful outburst, I'll let Illyria respond for herself if she chooses to, but I wouldn't blame her if she just laughed and walked off!
Disgraceful outburst yes I suppose it was. Yet she's a disgrace for endorsing a collection of Homocidal maniacs who kill at the soonest, as is anyone else that does for that matter. Oh did I mention she thinks of us as "Cave Dwelling primitives" which makes her slightly Arrogant as well. I mean let's face it, you Machinists are a collection of Self Rightcheous individuals who think they are better than Zionites and Mervs.
I could say Zionites are arrogant on occasion, but getting anhiliated by Sentinals, having the Old City destroyed and being attacked just for the reason of existing, really just makes one more humble to the situation. If anyone needs to learn Humility it's you people, biased as this may seem, but The Machines are the one's with all the Big Forces. Let's face it, you won't learn Humility until you know how it feels to be on the verge of defeat.
((Again this is all RP, just in case anyone is offended OOC wise.))
Disgraceful outburst yes I suppose it was. Yet she's a disgrace for endorsing a collection of Homocidal maniacs who kill at the soonest, as is anyone else that does for that matter. Oh did I mention she thinks of us as "Cave Dwelling primitives" which makes her slightly Arrogant as well. I mean let's face it, you Machinists are a collection of Self Rightcheous individuals who think they are better than Zionites and Mervs. I could say Zionites are arrogant on occasion, but getting anhiliated by Sentinals, having the Old City destroyed and being attacked just for the reason of existing, really just makes one more humble to the situation. If anyone needs to learn Humility it's you people, biased as this may seem, but The Machines are the one's with all the Big Forces. Let's face it, you won't learn Humility until you know how it feels to be on the verge of defeat. ((Again this is all RP, just in case anyone is offended OOC wise.))
Where did she endorse a collection of homicidal maniacs? As for what she thinks of you, that's her opinion to which she's perfectly entitled, the same way you are entitled to believe that Machinists are a collection of self righteous individuals.
Arrogance is not a byproduct of being humble in fact it's Human arrogance that precipitated the war in the first place. Also Illyria's humility shines through her final statement. She did not say that she will end the war or be instrumental in its completion, she merely stated her hope for a bright future for all races.
What Started this War was Fear and Assumptions, not Human Arrogance. Besides which, I don't see how starting another argument about who started the War is going to make a difference, considering that I, and many others, think the Machinists are wrong on who started War and are no longer willing to listen to their arguments on it.
As for a Better Future, well your going to have to ask the Oracle if it comes true. She thinks everything will turn out for the best and I hope it does.
Sometimes I think Illyria's thoughts are the precipitation of several arguments.
((Lol I just spelt it Homocidal instead of Homicidal on my last post))
What Started this War was Fear and Assumptions, not Human Arrogance. Besides which, I don't see how starting another argument about who started the War is going to make a difference, considering that I, and many others, think the Machinists are wrong on who started War and are no longer willing to listen to their arguments on it. As for a Better Future, well your going to have to ask the Oracle if it comes true. She thinks everything will turn out for the best and I hope it does. Sometimes I think Illyria's thoughts are the precipitation of several arguments. ((Lol I just spelt it Homocidal instead of Homicidal on my last post))
No, what ended the truce was fear and assumption on both sides, it was Human arrogance that started the war. I'm not intending it to be an argument, the Zion archive file on the second rennaisance shows the arrogance of man. It is that Human arrogance that started the chain of events which caused Human humbleness and since you said that Zionites are still arrogant shows that they haven't learnt from history.
[...] it was Human arrogance that started the war. I'm not intending it to be an argument, the Zion archive file on the second rennaisance shows the arrogance of man. It is that Human arrogance that started the chain of events which caused Human humbleness and since you said that Zionites are still arrogant shows that they haven't learnt from history.
No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?
its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.
Vinia wrote:No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.
GamiSB wrote:Vinia wrote:No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.So you think that the first Humans would just go along with what the Machines tell them? When the Machines came to attack the first time, the Human inhabitants of Zion wouldn't have tried to hide their records to be found later on? It's a possibility, sure I can't deny it, but until you have proof that the Archive is a Machine fabrication it is the only reference to the origin of the conflict. Also why doesn't Zion alter it to suggest that the Machine attacked first?If we are to doubt the only source available then who is to say that Mankind was ever free? Or even indigenous to the planet, we could have been grown in a Machine lab invented to provide the Machines with power...
Yes actully I do, seeings as the Machine has a talent for weaveing and selling very tall tales and makeing people believe what it wants them to. The archive shows nothing more then a black and white history which lets face it, history has never been that black and white.
And why not doubt it? Everything else has been fabricated. Zion's history, fake. Purpose for the pods, fake. First 10-20 years of our lives, fake. The prophacy, fake.
